tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post8906002143331916731..comments2022-12-02T19:20:08.032-05:00Comments on Kentucky Packrat: An open tribulation Theory BlogKentucky Packrathttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01444480982718107017noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-64664940999809097912010-01-01T04:03:47.906-05:002010-01-01T04:03:47.906-05:00I invite you all to Google "Pretrib Expert Jo...I invite you all to Google "Pretrib Expert John Walvoord Melts Ice" which is found on Joe Ortiz's blog "The End Times Passover." It would appear that Dr. Walvoord is wrong and some new kids on the block are right when it comes to "apostasia" in II Thess. 2:3! StanleyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-31460186146626316552009-12-22T21:45:36.934-05:002009-12-22T21:45:36.934-05:00oops, I typed ascending...should be descending.oops, I typed ascending...should be descending.SugarPinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-50524974200130471712009-12-22T21:40:29.861-05:002009-12-22T21:40:29.861-05:00Good points, Richard. They coincide with my senti...Good points, Richard. They coincide with my sentiments. I think we're in for a rough time in the US. The ascending nature of our society carries with it challenges that are sure to grieve believers. But I think the factors are in place for the final days, and yes, that includes the beginning of the Great Tribulation. We'll know soon.SugarPinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-1342397423800242352009-12-22T21:21:43.756-05:002009-12-22T21:21:43.756-05:00My position: pre-trib.
Paul says: "wherefore ...My position: pre-trib.<br />Paul says: "wherefore comfort one another with these words." I Thes 4:18; the prospect of having to go through the Tribulation is not very comforting, and makes no sense here.<br />That's not to say the we won't ever get uncomfortable: if we let evil prosper, then we get the results of our inactivity. [Political or otherwise] But the massive badness predicted is not for us. The perceived level of badness that we encounter in our daily lives<br />Now. We all believe what we believe, and what actually happens to us in real life may not fit our plan or our limited, human world-view. Then what? Job said: "though he slay me, yet will I trust him"; we all must be ready to accept whatever comes from the hand of our Maker. He promises to give us grace to endure what comes. <br />The Jews had to endure the Holocaust. Early Christians had to endure the Coliseum, lions, crosses; Medieval believers and those who translated the Word to the vernacular in more recent centuries, the rack, the stake; believers in Iran, Russia or China their own individual hellish situation.<br />We endure... what: embarrassment? Discomfort, boredom?<br />I do think some misuse and oversimplify this eschatology, but this does not prove it wrong. I Thes 4 and 5 are powerful passages, and IMHO require more violent contortions to take as other than a pre-trib scenario.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09548217236377511321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-77919857474389616382009-12-22T20:27:26.429-05:002009-12-22T20:27:26.429-05:00Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year Brothers and ...Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year Brothers and Sisters :-)80's musicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-64954858414692601342009-12-22T19:55:15.845-05:002009-12-22T19:55:15.845-05:00KP, I'm sharing this blog with a friend of min...KP, I'm sharing this blog with a friend of mine who reads Vox Day's blog.<br />BTW, any of you ever come across abrahamic-faith.com?SugarPinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-19204407279735192292009-12-22T19:44:39.175-05:002009-12-22T19:44:39.175-05:00Just to clarify...
Anonymous is SugarPi, except fo...Just to clarify...<br />Anonymous is SugarPi, except for the 9:14 am post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-70870012653398961812009-12-22T09:46:31.297-05:002009-12-22T09:46:31.297-05:00Some Christmas cheer :-)
Merry Christmas and a Ha...Some Christmas <a href="http://www.arcamax.com/garfield/s-664558-145888" rel="nofollow">cheer :-)</a><br /><br />Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year Brothers!80's musicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-21457745654333217002009-12-22T09:44:35.392-05:002009-12-22T09:44:35.392-05:00Good stuff from all of you.
Athor, I liked your c...Good stuff from all of you.<br /><br />Athor, I liked your column. Made good sense to me. Especially the part about the crisis of faith when things don't work like we've been taught. That's a concern of mine.<br /><br />Going beyond the rapture (if that's ok) I'll throw out some of my own speculation. Before things get bad, I think they're going to be good. <i>Really</i> good. Like prosperity, long lives, good health. We'll see biotech increase lifespans and let people have flawless babies, who grow into near superhumans.<br /><br />And we'll see some amazing things, perhaps "discover" life on another planet. (And a non-theistic origin of life will be "proved")<br /><br />I think all of this will lead to the "falling away" that is discussed. Because people fall away when things are good, and they think they're in control of their world.<br /><br />Then the dam is gonna break, and those 7s discussed in the Revelation are going to come forth. People will be very angry that their lives are disrupted, and Christians will be easy targets for their wrath. The persecution will be tremendous.<br /><br />I could be wrong about all of that, but it's gonna be a shock to Christians if the rapture doesn't come and life is brutal.DrTorchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-43816707557403642812009-12-22T09:14:08.228-05:002009-12-22T09:14:08.228-05:00A quick way to shoot down the notion that the firs...A quick way to shoot down the notion that the first resurrection is tied to a specific date, as opposed to a more general time frame, is to take note of the tribulation rapture of the two witnesses and the 144,000 Jewish evangelists. At the mid-point of the tribulation, the two witnesses are killed by the Antichrist, resurrected by God, and then caught up into heaven (Rev 11:3-12).<br /><br />Revelation chapter 7 describes the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists just before the Beast issues his mark. Sometime during the latter half of the tribulation, Revelation chapter 14 indicates they will be "redeemed from the earth," standing before the throne of God.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-7764700821391321952009-12-22T09:06:07.022-05:002009-12-22T09:06:07.022-05:00The only people I know who are attempting to keep ...<a href="http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html" rel="nofollow">The only people I know who are attempting to keep the pre-trib rapture a secret are its critics. Pre-wrath and post-trib folks have the national media and the liberal churches as their allies in their ongoing effort to silence all knowledge of the "blessed hope."</a>80's musicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-82991413665695337722009-12-22T08:44:15.999-05:002009-12-22T08:44:15.999-05:00Gee guys Join the club, I got deleted by VD too, t...Gee guys Join the club, I got deleted by VD too, that's why I came over here. Gotta love VD's Christmas spirit.80's musicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-34479680172763000062009-12-22T08:40:47.812-05:002009-12-22T08:40:47.812-05:00Just some observations...
I lean toward pre-trib, ...Just some observations...<br />I lean toward pre-trib, but don't paint me with the broad brush. I am fully aware that Christians are not exempt from persecution and suffering. But I will not make the mistake of focusing on the messenger too much. The truth is the truth no matter who speaks it. I also don't think it's possible to completely answer the question of when the Rapture will occur. <br />I am grateful for the opportunity to delve into this topic with articulate, informed individuals. God bless you all and have a Merry Christmas!<br />I'll check back as my scedule permits.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-48968321079298935222009-12-22T07:24:22.906-05:002009-12-22T07:24:22.906-05:00Dr. Torch: VD deleted a couple of my posts, which ...<i><b>Dr. Torch:</b> VD deleted a couple of my posts, which is his choice, but it seems arbitrary to me so I don't know for sure when I'll offend his sensibilities.</i><br /><br />Spacebunny has deleted me occasionally when I veer off-topic too. I was going to ask her about it, but I never did find her Email address, and Vox basically shrugged the subject off. That's OK, it's his blog, so it's her's too. :)<br /><br /><i>The final thing that VD deleted was that I do try to be aware that it is very tempting to concern ourselves with history (origins/evolution) and with the future (aeschatology) when we're commanded to be concerned with the present. That's what we'll be responsible for. I think CS Lewis alludes to this at the beginning of one chap (Ch 15?) of Screwtape Letters.</i><br /><br />Now you're making me want to drag out my Screwtape Letters again....<br /><br />I thought that Clive had very negative things to say about the current round of Progressives who focused on fulfilling earthly needs and left Godly needs for later. That said, I can't remember where he would have said it, so I can't be sure.<br /><br />There is a balance. Like the bride of the Jewish wedding, we are to make ourselves ready for our bridegroom and long for the day He comes, but we still have things to do here. We must be prepared (lest we be like the maidens without oil for our lamps), but we cannot simply hide our talents either.<br /><br />God is a God of moderation without being a God of lukewarmness. I pity the non-believer who thinks faith is the easy way out. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-3220341251345964222009-12-22T07:10:52.152-05:002009-12-22T07:10:52.152-05:00Running this thread has ALMOST made me consider co...Running this thread has ALMOST made me consider cocomment. Blogger's built-in comment tools stink.<br /><br /><i><b>Athor Pel:</b>Which all happened to be graduates of Dallas Theological Seminary, a veritable font of pre-trip rapture theorists. Hal Lindsay being prime among them. He argues hard for it and contorts himself in ways a bible teacher should not have to.</i><br /><br />I have no respect left for Hal Lindsey. He is a bit like my great uncle R: the Rapture will be here in a couple of years because of X. Then just replace X when X(0) didn't happen.<br /><br />Mosaic law had a useful way to control people speaking for God: if you say God said it'd happen, and it didn't, you die. Now, I don't want Hal dead, but I wish he'd quit talking like he knows what God's going to make happen. He has no shame for ever being wrong.<br /><br /><i>I have come to a conclusion over the last few years on my own, guided by scripture and no other human influence. That conclusion is that "the rapture" will not happen at a time when most Christians expect it. Specially American Christians. Very bad things are going to happen before any snatching away occurs.</i><br /><br />Even as a "pre-tribber", I agree. Many Joel Olsteen Christians have decided "We're going to have a good life, and then God will Rapture us out before the non-Christians get what they deserve". They are sadly mistaken.<br /><br />I think we're due some very rough times here in the world, and that God will use that time and an outpouring of the Holy Spirit to create a new round of revival upon the world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-28624242648998086742009-12-22T06:01:48.893-05:002009-12-22T06:01:48.893-05:00Looks like my comment at Vox's got deleted too...Looks like my comment at Vox's got deleted too.<br /><br />Here are some links to a couple posts at my blog. I wrote about this stuff quite a while ago it looks like.<br /><br /><br /><a href="http://noncryptic.blogspot.com/2009/08/rapture.html" rel="nofollow">Rapture</a><br /><br /><br /><a href="http://noncryptic.blogspot.com/2009/08/3-sevens.html" rel="nofollow">3 Sevens</a><br /><br /><br />And just for your information, I used to be a pre-tribber. Mainly because all of the stuff I read up to that time was written by pre-trib rapture theorists. Which all happened to be graduates of Dallas Theological Seminary, a veritable font of pre-trip rapture theorists. Hal Lindsay being prime among them. He argues hard for it and contorts himself in ways a bible teacher should not have to.<br /><br />I have come to a conclusion over the last few years on my own, guided by scripture and no other human influence. That conclusion is that "the rapture" will not happen at a time when most Christians expect it. Specially American Christians. Very bad things are going to happen before any snatching away occurs.<br /><br />Read the above linked posts and you'll see where I'm coming from.Athor Pelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13307205914379695963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-22971587891198374992009-12-21T21:02:56.498-05:002009-12-21T21:02:56.498-05:00Thank you Kentucky Packrat, for opening up your bl...Thank you Kentucky Packrat, for opening up your blog. VD deleted a couple of my posts, which is his choice, but it seems arbitrary to me so I don't know for sure when I'll offend his sensibilities.<br /><br />I haven't read all of the posts. BUt I'll start w/ 2 Thess 2:6. Like others I believe it is the Holy Spirit who can restrain the full lawlessness. I think it could also be an angel, similar to the conflict referred to in Daniel (I think that's a legit interpretation, but I'm not very knowledgeable about the original language)<br /><br />On this passage alone, I could see the support for a pre-trib ratpure.<br /><br />But, I believe when one interprets scripture in light of other scripture, going back to Matt 24:27, 30-31, we see that the 2nd coming is no secret. People don't get whisked away in some mystery (Like "Thief in the Night" or "Distant Sound of Thunder").<br /><br />Instead the whole world knows <i>exactly</i> what is going on.<br /><br />The final thing that VD deleted was that I do try to be aware that it is very tempting to concern ourselves with history (origins/evolution) and with the future (aeschatology) when we're commanded to be concerned with the present. That's what we'll be responsible for. I think CS Lewis alludes to this at the beginning of one chap (Ch 15?) of Screwtape Letters.DrTorchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-79571394577032511812009-12-21T19:07:33.321-05:002009-12-21T19:07:33.321-05:00As for AP's analysis @ 1:27 pm, I beg to diffe...As for AP's analysis @ 1:27 pm, I beg to differ. I cannot see how he came to that conclusion. These verses and the whole bible testify to God's sovereignty. For example v.6 in 2 Thessalonians 2 says "he(the anti-Christ) maybe revealed at the <b>proper time.</b> This denotes being in complete contol of the process of revealing. Also v.7 "the One who holds it back <b>will continue to do so..."</b> the implication is again that God is in control. Construing verse 3 to mean the church's failings enable the anti-Christ to reveal himself does not coordinate with God's sovereignty and implies the anti-Christ is in charge of end times events which he is not.80's musicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-60311615924190488132009-12-21T18:32:20.076-05:002009-12-21T18:32:20.076-05:00That comment was a little tongue in cheek. I'...That comment was a little tongue in cheek. I'm not a go-with-the-flow kind of person.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-42162869196352137062009-12-21T18:30:48.903-05:002009-12-21T18:30:48.903-05:00With 57% of self identified Christians in the US s...With 57% of self identified Christians in the US saying they believe Jesus is not the only way to Heaven, I think the falling away is here. The Church has been corrupted. It's easy to see how the number of professing Christians will shrink as radical Islam takes over here as it has in Europe and other countries. Only true believers risk their lives as the 1st generation believers did.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-4018612697858579992009-12-21T18:19:00.258-05:002009-12-21T18:19:00.258-05:00"but its current fall from favor makes me alm..."but its current fall from favor makes me almost more likely to believe it."<br /><br />Yeah that's um an interesting observation these days especially when you look at the folks most against it. Though not a way to interpret the truth of the bible but not something you want to discount either.80's musicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-44125194115730155192009-12-21T18:09:06.468-05:002009-12-21T18:09:06.468-05:00Thanks, AP, for your response. I will have to dig...Thanks, AP, for your response. I will have to digest some of the posts here and reread the scripture. About 2 years ago I started reading a post-trib scholar's website and it took awhile before I found the sticking points. Until then I found his writings quite convincing.<br />I'm in a class taught by a very scholarly pre-tribber and I intend to bring up these issues in my truth-seeking quest. I may have to just be prepared to be wrong about the pre-trib rapture, but its current fall from favor makes me almost more likely to believe it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-43469676501878819592009-12-21T17:27:57.270-05:002009-12-21T17:27:57.270-05:00Vox himself moved from the U.S. so you would think...Vox himself moved from the U.S. so you would think he would embrace the concept.80's musicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-83964696352680213542009-12-21T17:24:03.799-05:002009-12-21T17:24:03.799-05:00Ok, I was just noting that with each instance of a...Ok, I was just noting that with each instance of a large scale judgement the believer physically removed himself from a certain vicinity and then the process was started also in Lot's case angels were instrumental in that, though with billions of Christians logistically according to the post-tribbers that could get tricky.80's musicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1002198462727741621.post-70341767241421856872009-12-21T17:16:05.477-05:002009-12-21T17:16:05.477-05:00Luke 17:20-37 is interesting, but I don't thin...Luke 17:20-37 is interesting, but I don't think it's the Rapture; I think it's Jesus' second coming and the events surrounding the splitting of the Mount of Olives. Luke 17 says that the believer shouldn't return to his house for possessions. The Rapture won't involve that; we'll either go or not go.<br /><br />Even as a Rapture proponent, I think this verse (and its counterpart in Mark 24) talk more about the Sheep and Goats judgement after the Seven Years, not the Rapture. The prepared run to Christ, not even running through the house. The rest are liable to suffer the judgement.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com